‘Nakba’s Final Chapter’? – Nine Takeaways from the FloodGate Interview with Ilan Pappé
By Romana Rubeo
Professor Ilan Pappé joins the FloodGate podcast to dissect Israel’s settler-colonial contradictions, the ongoing Nakba, and the West’s role in Gaza’s destruction.
In an engaging episode of the FloodGate podcast on Wednesday, March 12, Palestine Chronicle editors Ramzy Baroud and Romana Rubeo featured renowned Israeli historian, Professor Ilan Pappé.
Pappé broke down the ideological contradictions at the heart of Israel’s settler-colonial project—and why October 7 exposed the impossibility of being both a Zionist and a democrat.
From Gaza’s destruction to the West’s complicity, Pappé unpacked the Nakba al-Mustamirra (ongoing Nakba), the Israeli genocide, and the urgent need for global solidarity to challenge apartheid and safeguard human rights.
Nakba al-Mustamirra – The Final Chapter?
Pappé emphasized the continuity of the Nakba from 1948 to the present day, arguing that it is the ongoing effort of Zionism and the Israeli state to erase Palestinians.
He explained, “If I judge the Israeli policies according to motive, objective, and strategy, which is being fed by certain ideology, then I think that the whole period is an attempt by the settler-colonial movement of Zionism and, later, by the state of Israel, to eliminate the Palestinians as a people, as a country, and as an idea.”
This overarching project, according to Pappé, involves not just the expulsion of Palestinians but also a broader effort to wipe them out as a distinct identity and culture, as part of Israel’s settler-colonial agenda.
He further clarified that while this genocidal project is not always executed on a grand scale, key moments—such as 1948 and 1967—reveal attempts to accelerate the process.
As he said, “The circumstances around 1948—the British withdrawal from Palestine, the fact that this was very close to the Holocaust in Germany, the trouble that the Arab world had in it, the fact that the colonized world was still not part of the international community—all that provided this idea among the Zionist leaders that 1948 was a very good opportunity, a very good time to try and expel people on a massive scale—ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.”
Despite Israel’s attempts at erasing Palestinians, Pappé remains hopeful in the long run:
“Unfortunately—not immediately—not for tomorrow or the day after—but in the longer term, I think (…) that we are at the end of the Nakba rather than the beginning of a new chapter in the ongoing Nakba.”
How the Perception of Israel Changed after October 7
Pappé noted a shift in how global civil society perceives the Israeli state in the wake of October 7.
“I think the context of the 7th of October, as well as the events unfolding after the 7th of October, is far better understood than it was in the very beginning. People have begun to read more and become more educated,” he remarked.
Yet despite this increased understanding, Pappé highlighted that many in the global West continue to ignore the historical context: “I’m afraid that quite a lot of people who know the context—people who are not ignorant or stupid and who hold key positions in mainstream media, academia, and politics, especially in the global West—are ignoring or denying the context.”
Palestinian Vs. Israeli Narrative
Pappé discussed the growing repression of the Palestinian narrative, which he sees as being undermined through intimidation and suppression rather than through rational debate.
“What I see now is a huge attempt to destroy the other (Palestinian – PC) narrative by means that are not academic and not moral, but through intimidation,” he said, pointing to the weaponization of accusations like antisemitism and terrorism to silence Palestinian voices.
This shift, he argued, is not because the Palestinian narrative lacks validity but because it is increasingly seen as a threat: “That shows you that something is very unsafe for the (Israeli) narrative”.
He further critiqued the way the Israeli state uses its allies to perpetuate this narrative, noting that “the state that concocts this narrative will still be supported regardless of the fabrication of historical facts or the invalidity of the narrative.”
Erosion of Democratic Values in the West
In the interview, Pappé discussed the erosion of democratic values in Western societies.
According to Pappé, moments of crisis, such as the October 7, 2023, events, are often exploited by certain political forces to clamp down on liberties, particularly those affecting multicultural and multi-ethnic societies.
“There are always elements—either in the security services, in the governments, or in the darker sides of government—that are not happy with the liberties of people.”
Pappé emphasized that the fight against terrorism and national security threats is often used as a pretext to undermine freedoms and impose a more narrow-minded view of liberal democracy.
He also pointed to the rise of systemic discrimination, particularly targeting women of color—especially those from Muslim, Arab, or African backgrounds.
Pappé cautioned that these actions are ultimately undermining the positive contributions of liberal democracies to the world.
The consequences of such policies are seen in the distortion of humanitarian ideas, particularly when peaceful concepts, such as advocating for equal rights in Palestine, are wrongly labeled as support for terrorism.
“What is quite incredible is the way that very democratic ideas—even ideas expressed about the future of the West and Palestine—are framed as terrorism.”
Netanyahu’s Power Base
Pappé also addressed the complexities within Israeli society, noting how Zionism has increasingly become incompatible with liberal democratic values. He argued that the ideology of settler-colonialism and the more universal values espoused by some of its members can never truly coexist.
“You cannot be a liberal colonizer. Albert Memmi wrote about it quite well—you cannot be a progressive ethnic cleanser, and you cannot be a socialist genocider. You can’t do it.”
According to Pappé, this ideological clash is at the heart of the crisis Israel faces, as evidenced by the events following October 7.
He explained how many Israeli Jews have decided to leave. A small minority has distanced themselves from the Zionist project, unable to reconcile their liberal values with the violence of occupation.
The idea that a settler-colonial society can really provide a moral viewpoint that is liberal, universal, socialist, one that is also loyal to global ideas and not only to the settler-colonial ideology of eliminating the natives, (…) the idea that this can be fused together into a viable ideological interpretation of Zionism would never work,” he said, adding:
“This is what October 7 did. It exposed the impossibility of being a Zionist and a democrat, a Zionist and a liberal”.
A third group of Israeli Jews, according to Pappé, “simply gave up” on the possibility of respecting human rights and international law. This, according to him, is now “Netanyahu’s power base”.
“The ideologies that sustain the Israeli apartheid state today are the ones that are winning and are destroying whatever remained of a more genuine or cynical attempt to have a more liberal democratic side to the Zionist project.”
Reconstructing Gaza
Pappé reflected on the current discourse surrounding the reconstruction of Gaza, expressing skepticism that efforts to rebuild without addressing the root causes of Israel’s ongoing oppression would be effective.
He drew a parallel to the treatment of Palestinian victims by Israeli doctors—treating them for their wounds only to send them back to their tormentors.
“Reconstructing Gaza without dealing with the problem of where Israel is today ideologically, morally, and internationally—without asking ourselves what the future of the Palestinians is… is like treating someone, healing them for a while, but sending them back to the hell that is modern Palestine.”
He warned that the Oslo process, with its focus on reconciliation, only served to help the oppressor maintain international legitimacy, while failing to address the underlying issues of occupation and ethnic cleansing.
“This is a talk of reconciliation, a talk of a solution, which actually only tries to help the oppressor and the occupier have an easier ride in terms of international legitimacy.”
The Myth of Palestinian Unity
Pappé acknowledged the importance of Palestinian unity but argued that it should not be used as an excuse for international inaction.
He stressed that the world, not just Palestinians, needs to unite in order to stop the genocide, ethnic cleansing, and violence that continues to devastate Palestinian communities.
“In order to stop the killing, the genocide, and the ethnic cleansing, the unity you need is not Palestinian unity—you need the unity of the world.”
He pointed to the ANC’s victory in South Africa, noting that what saved them was global unity against apartheid, rather than just their internal cohesion.
“What saved the ANC was not its unity, but what saved them, apart from their own struggle, was that eventually, a unity in the world unfolded… regarding the invalidity or illegitimacy of the apartheid regime in South Africa.”
Russia, China, and the Global South
When discussing the role of Russia and China in the Palestinian struggle, Pappé proposed that these countries could exert influence through the United Nations and economic transactions to hold Israel accountable.
He highlighted that these nations, while not perfect on human rights, have the power to create more favorable conditions for international solidarity with Palestine.
“Russia and China have the power to do this; they can negotiate with other countries in the West, especially now that President Trump is rearranging the world’s geopolitical alliances.”
Pappé also suggested that Palestinians would prefer to have their future conversations mediated by countries from the Global South, rather than the discredited powers of the US or Europe.
“I think that when Palestinians as a national movement feel that they are now in a position to enter conversations about their future, they would rather have these conversations mediated and facilitated by China and Russia than by the United States or Europe.”
Palestinians’ ‘Invisibility’
Finally, Pappé discussed the longstanding invisibility of Palestinians in international discussions about their future.
He emphasized the need for Palestinians to lead the conversation about their own destiny and for the world to recognize them as the primary actors in shaping their future.
“The Palestinians must be the ones talking about it… The moment the international community acknowledges that the Palestinians are leading the conversation about their own future, it will activate more positive processes inside Palestinian society, such as unity, clearer representation, and a clearer vision.”
He pointed out that past attempts to resolve the issue without Palestinian leadership have failed and that it is crucial for Palestinians to be visible, not only in the eyes of their oppressors but also to the world at large.
“This is the kind of conversation and language we should hope will become dominant and prevalent, creating a different idea of who is leading the way toward the future.”
(The Palestine Chronicle)
– Romana Rubeo is an Italian writer and the managing editor of The Palestine Chronicle. Her articles appeared in many online newspapers and academic journals. She holds a Master’s Degree in Foreign Languages and Literature and specializes in audio-visual and journalism translation.
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